From @bloom-beacon.mit.edu:news@lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 9 02:11:31 1992 Received: from BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA24614; Thu, 9 Jul 92 02:11:31 EDT Received: from MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU by bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU with SMTP (5.61/25-eef) id AA29552; Thu, 9 Jul 92 02:11:24 EDT Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: mintaka.lcs.mit.edu!mib From: Michael I Bushnell Subject: Re: Dating...Believers and Non In-Reply-To: daphne@casbah.acns.nwu.edu's message of 9 Jul 92 04:29:00 GMT Message-Id: Sender: news@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA References: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1992 07:09:55 GMT Lines: 41 Apparently-To: Here's my perspective on dating non-Christians: Two authors I've read recently, Robert Williams and Chris Glaser, describe their experience in this regard, Chris Glaser in _Uncommon_Calling_ and Robert Williams in _Just_As_I_Am. Glaser describes his "love affair with the church", and the reality that any one he dates has to realize that his first love is the Church, and that will always take priority. Robert Williams, replacing Church with Christ, affirms the same concept. Thinking about these two, who I greatly respect, has cast some light on relationships of my own: where I feel most free to speak of spiritual and religious feelings, relationships have been the most positive. Even better are those relationships where there is much shared religious common ground: not only could we discuss things freely, but we could celebrate and rejoice in them, together. I'm somewhat opposed to hard rules, like "never marry a non-Christian". The Roman Catholic Church's guidance is actually quite wise: before a marriage to a non-Catholic Christian is approved, the non-Catholic must understand and accept that the Catholic spouse's first obligation is to the Church, and that the Catholic spouse's faith is to remain secure. (I'm more hesitant about the provisions for raising children, but that isn't an issue that effects my relationships. :-) I do understand the Roman Catholic Church's reasons however, and have some sympathy for them.) I think that the most satisfying relationships are usually those between people of the same faith. But all that means is that such a thing is characteristic of "Mr. Right". Since there is, in fact, no Mr. Right, and since, in fact, the people we choose to love and spend our lives with are not perfect ideals, but real persons, this becomes just one more of the many things that affect the dynamics of the relationship. It's a good thing, but lacking it isn't a "dealbreaker". -- Michael I. Bushnell | As a mother comforts her child, +1 617 625 4518 (H) | so I will comfort you; +1 617 253 8568 (W) | you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. From usenet@menudo.uh.edu Thu Jul 9 13:22:24 1992 Received: from Menudo.UH.EDU by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA26820; Thu, 9 Jul 92 13:22:24 EDT Received: by Menudo.UH.EDU id AA23845 (5.67a+/IDA-1.5 for christian@aramis.rutgers.edu); Thu, 9 Jul 1992 12:22:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1992 12:22:22 -0500 From: USENET News System Message-Id: <199207091722.AA23845@Menudo.UH.EDU> To: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: menudo.uh.edu!wagner From: wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Subject: Re: Dating...Believers and Non In-Reply-To: daphne@casbah.acns.nwu.edu's message of 9 Jul 92 04:29:00 GMT Message-ID: Sender: usenet@menudo.uh.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spinoza.math.uh.edu Organization: UH Dept of Math References: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1992 18:24:04 GMT "Amy" == Amy Kruse writes: Amy> My real question is, and you will have to forgive me if this has Amy> been beaten to death I am new to the newsgroup, do you think it Amy> is possible for Christians to date non-Christians. I know all Amy> about the passages, "do not be yoked with unbelievers", but I am Amy> trying to be realistic. 2 Cor 6: 14-18 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers" is principally about fellowship. Paul wrote, "What fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?" We should always take care not to permit the Christian faith to be confused with false religions. They have nothing in common, as Paul wrote. This particularly applies to our worship. We are commanded not to worship false gods. The Corinthians, recent converts living in a city full of false religion and much iniquity, had problems with this. Those problems are documented throughout Paul's letters to the Corinthians. Paul wanted to make sure they would not fall back into idolatry-- which Israel had done many times. So he urged them, "Therefore come out from them and be separate", quoting Isaiah 52:11. There are references in this passage to individuals, "What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever". Some have applied this passage to marriage. What closer relationship is there between two people, than the marital relationship? And isn't that relationship made stronger by a shared common faith? Isn't it made weaker by a lack of common faith? Yet I would not say that marriage with an unbeliever is sin for the believer. I don't find an explicit New Testament command to that effect, and the Christian lives by grace, not law. However, for the reasons stated above, I would say that for a believer to marry an unbeliever is inadvisable. Marriage, over the long run, is difficult enough. Why handicap yourself? My wife would not have married me, if she had not been convinced that I was a Christian. Note, however, that Paul also wrote: "If any brother who has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him....But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so." (1 Cor 7:12-15) Now, what about dating? I don't find much in the Bible about dating, per se. However God certainly forbids fornication, and commends holy living. For all I know, maybe everybody married young, and the marriages were arranged by the parents. What is dating? Is it a serious pre-marital relationship, in comtemplation of marriage? Then I think the Christian believer had better try to establish a common shared christian faith. If, or when, dating is not contemplation of marriage, then perhaps we should ask ourselves what such dating is, and whether it is God-pleasing. Is dating unbelievers a form of evangelism? Great! Is it a path to sin and unbelief? Terrible! I don't have a good answer to this question, so I leave it to you, and the rest of the newsgroup. As the father of two daughters, I hope to find an answer soon. David Wagner a confessional Lutheran. -------------- "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure." Hebrews 13:4 -------------- From dht@cs.mu.oz.au Sun Jul 12 07:10:22 1992 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA08386; Sun, 12 Jul 92 07:10:22 EDT Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16269; Sun, 12 Jul 1992 21:10:15 +1000 (from dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU) Received: by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU (5.64+1.3.1+0.50); id AA22277 Sun, 12 Jul 1992 21:10:14 +1000 (from dht) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1992 21:10:14 +1000 From: Joyous Dave baby Message-Id: <9207121110.22277@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> To: soc-religion-christian@munnari.oz.au Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: dht From: dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby) Subject: Go ahead and Mix (was Re: Dating...Believers and Non) Message-ID: <9219421.22231@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia References: Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1992 11:10:10 GMT Lines: 64 I do not believe there is anything wrong with Christians dating non-Christians. And extending from here, I do not believe the typical American Fundamentalist teaching that Christians should not yoke (mix with or be close friends with) non-Christians or people with different beliefs (reads: denominations). In my opinion, the biggest Mission of every Christian is to go into the world, mix with everyone, and shine the inner light to everyone you meet. Rather than excluding everyone to start with, and then bible-bash someone who was excluded but wants to be included. The former, IMHO, is what Jesus and St. Paul wants us to do, and bear more positive fruits; the latter is a human invention (or a mis-informed interpretation of certain parts of the Holy Bible), and bear more negative fruits. I can think of a few examples: 1) When I was in year 11, I used to hang around a bunch of non-Christians. I played with them, and sincerely became friends with them (I mean, I don't become their friends because I want to convert them, but I become their friends because I want to be their friends). And God works in a mystery way. Somehow, I had the chance to share my Faith with them, and that eventually turned into a little Prayer-Bible-Faith group. At the end (before I left school), most of them have accepted Christ, and one of them became my God-Son. You can't imagine the joy I experienced when he asked me to become his godfather. If I followed what some Fundamentalists preach, and do not mix with the non-Christians... the above would not have happened. Didn't Paul use to eat Pork with Gentiles? If he listened to those conservatives (who opposed mixing with Gentiles), Christianity would not have spread that fast initially. There was a "Christian" girl in my year, and she doesn't mix with non-Christian, and she doesn't even mix with me, because she thought I wasn't "Christian-enough"! Trying not to sound judgemental, but she hardly has any friends because of her isolationist attitude. I do not believe she's given her schoolmates a good impression of a Christian. 2) When my parents got married, my father was a Baptist, and my mother wasn't a Christian (she was agnostic, or whatever the correct term was). But, my mother submits to my father, and follows him to Church, and takes us to Church, and sent me to a Baptist primary school (I went to a Catholic secondary school and got converted there). And after years and years of patience, God converted my mother a few years ago (surprising enough, she became a Christian after I did). And now she has such a strong Faith that she's such a support and blessing to my Spiritual life (even though we differ in some areas of our beliefs). And she's also a great influence on my little brother's Spirituality. God works in funny way, if my father didn't date my mother, she would not have been who she is now, and she's even feeding back to my father ( :-) ). I do not believe in isolationism, and I do not believe that Christians should only be friends with Christians. We should all go out and mix with everyone, and allow God to do what He wants to do, through us. If we isolate ourselves from the world, how can God reach the world through us? -- Yes, the above was not written by me, it was an alien who hacked into my account. The alien is from the planet Pluto which has no atmosphere, and hardly any sunlight; and that's why he is hacking Earth. I'm a victim!!! Alien said to me, "Lighten up, I promised I won't do a 'rm -rf *'!!!!" :)