From uucp@netcom.com Thu Jul 29 08:12:35 1993 Received: from klinzhai.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA19115; Thu, 29 Jul 93 08:12:35 EDT Received: from uucp4.netcom.com by klinzhai.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA10678; Thu, 29 Jul 93 08:12:32 EDT Received: from alc-ohio.UUCP by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14209; Thu, 29 Jul 93 05:12:27 PDT Received: from alc-ohio.UUCP by alc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/ALC-main-1.13) id AA10615; Thu, 29 Jul 93 05:10:34 PDT Received: by alc-ohio.alc-ohio.alc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/ALC-ohio-1.14) id AA01685; Thu, 29 Jul 93 07:14:17 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 07:14:17 EDT From: stassen@alc-ohio.alc.com (Chris Stassen) Message-Id: <9307291114.AA01685@alc-ohio.alc-ohio.alc.com> To: christian@geneva.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: reading list wanted Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian In-Reply-To: Reply-To: stassen@alc.com Organization: The Lion's Den - Newark, Ohio Cc: Enclosed is Mr. Buxton's proposed creationist reading list, which I wrote mine (the one you already have) in response to: ----------------------------------------- From loowit.wr.tek.com!davidbu@netcomsv.netcom.com Wed Apr 15 06:54:23 1992 Return-Path: Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by alc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/ALC-main-1.13) id AA14404; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:54:22 PDT From: loowit.wr.tek.com!davidbu@netcomsv.netcom.com Received: from relay.tek.com by netcomsv.netcom.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26450; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:48:06 PDT Received: by relay.tek.com id ; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:34:58 -0700 Received: from wrgate.wr.tek.com by tektronix.TEK.COM (4.1/8.0) id AA22825; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:37:28 PDT Received: by wrgate.wr.tek.com (5.51/8.0) id AA08484; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:34:50 PDT Received: from localhost.TEK by loowit.WR.TEK.COM (4.1/8.0) id AA00267; Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:34:45 PDT Message-Id: <9204151334.AA00267@loowit.WR.TEK.COM> To: stassen@alc.com Subject: Re: Biblical Origins - Book list Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 06:34:45 PDT Status: R Selected References on Topics Related to Creationism prepared by the Geoscience Research Institute for Pastors, Primary and Secondary Teachers Ager, Derek V. 1981 The nature of the stratigraphical record. 2nd ed. John Wiley & Sons, New York. An aggressively committed evolutionist gives an impressive presentation of the necessity of a catastrophic model to account for geologic features. 122 pages. Anderson, J. Kerby & Harold G. Coffin. 1977. Fossils in focus. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Part of a series intended especially for college and university students. Lays out both creation and evolution models and shows how the fossil record best fits the former. 95 pages. Bliss, Richard B., Gary E. Parker, & Duage T. Gish. 1980. Fossils: key to the present. Creation- Life Publishers, San Diego, California. An elementary introduction to fossils and to evolutionistic and creationistic interpretations of the fossil record. 81 pages. Bliss, Richard B., & Gary E. Parker. 1979. Origin of life: Evolution, creation. Creation-Life Publishers, San Diego, California. A well-written, well-illustrated, brief presentation of contrasting creationist and evolutionist explanations for the origin of life. Suited for secondary level, and appropriate for use in public schools. 51 pages. Bowden, M. 1977. Ape-men--fact of fallacy? Sovereign Publications, Kent. One of the few book- length creationist analyses of the fossil evidence bearing on the origin of man. If offers a typical creationist treatment of ancient man fossils, emphasizing the sketchy and often fraudulent nature of the evidence. Although the interpretive emphasis of the book is exaggerated and often mistaken, it contains much useful information not readily available in the standard scientific literature. 196 pages. Clark, R.E.D. 1961 The universe: plan or accident? Fortress Press, Philadelphia. A scholarly presentation of the evidences from physics, chemistry, astronomy, and biology for creation by a Supreme Being. 238 pages. Coffin, Harold G. 1977. Earth story. Review & Herald Publishing Association, Takoma Park, Washington, D.C. A non-technical volume covering most aspects of creationism and its relation to Scripture. Useful for non- scientists and junior and senior high-school students. Well illustrated in color. 190 pages. Coffin, Harold G. with R. H. Brown. 1983 Origin by design. Review & Herald Publishing Association, Takoma Park, Washington, D. C. A general reference covering the topic of creation; evidences for creation, evidences for a universal flood, discussion of fossils, geologic processes, geologic time, speciation and the evolutionary theory. 494 pages. Coppedge, James F. 1973. Evolution: possible or impossible? Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. An excellent popular treatment of probability considerations in molecular biology from a creationist viewpoint. The presentation is enlivened and clarified with striking illustrations. The reader should exercise caution in utilizing material from Chapter 12 in which the author uncritically summarized from the creationist literature a wide range of viewpoints of topics other than molecular biology. 276 pages. Denton, Michael. 1985. Evolution: A theory in crisis. The Hutchinson Publishing Group. 17-21 Conway St. London W1P 6JD England. One of the best recent books on the problems of evolutionary theory. 368 pages. Gish, Duane T. 1979. Evolution: the fossils say no! 3rd ed. Institute for Creation Research, San Diego, California. A well-written paperback which clearly and fairly discusses the fossil record with emphasis on early man. Evolutionary and creationist interpretations are contrasted. 190 pages. Grasse, Pierre P. 1977. Evolution of living organisms. Academic Press, New York. Translation from French of a well-written, and often humorous, work in which a respected evolutionist scholar arguing from biochemistry, molecular biology, paleantology, and genetics presents evidence that generally has been recognized by the creationist community. In presenting his arguments, Dr. Grasse retreats one step short of recognizing a transcendent agency working in and through nature. 297 pages. Hitching, Francis. 1982. The neck of the giraffe: Where Darwin went wrong. Ticknor & Fields, New Haven, Connecticut. Discussion of the problems with Darwinism and the neo-Darwinian synthesis in explaining the processes of evolution. Chapter 5 discusses the creation viewpoint. The author rejects creationism and hopes that biologists will discover another model to explain how evolution occurred. 288 pages. Javor, George T. 1979. Once upon a molecule. Southern Publishing Association, Nashville, Tennessee. A brief, non-technical discussion of chemical evolution, written by a competent biochemist. 31 pages. Lester, Lane P. & Raymond G. Bohlin. 1984. The natural limits to biological change. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Examines the concept of change in species and rejects both gradualism and punctuated equilibrium as being inadequate models of change. Proposes instead that changes in species occur by loss of genetic variability and that there are limits to the amount of change possible. 207 pages. MacBeth, Norman. 1971. Darwin retried. Gambit Inc., Boston, Massachusetts. An important work by a lawyer who, while not presenting a case for creationism, points out inconsistencies, confusion and contradictions in the classical evolutionary theory. 178 pages. Roth, Ariel A. 1982. The universal flood debate: the response. Liberty 77(6):12-15. Geologic evidences supporting the concept of a worldwide flood. Roth, Ariel A. 1984. The trend toward catastrophism in geology. The Adventist Review 161(24):9- 11. A non-technical review of the increasing evidence of rapid changes in the past. Roth, Ariel A. 1986. Some questions about geochronology. Origins 13 (2):64-85. A review of time-dependent factors that disagree with geochronological interpretations requiring billions of years for the development of the crust of the earth and the evidence of life contained therein. Factors considered are: rates of erosion, sediment deposition in the ocean, rate of sediment accumulation on the continents, rates of uplift of mountains, production of volcanic ejecta, growth rates of human populations, and time required for evolutionary organization of life. -- Chris Stassen (614) 366-9628 stassen@alc.com <>< From chesepx@indigo2 Thu Jul 29 16:54:10 1993 Received: from klinzhai.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA16825; Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:54:10 EDT Received: from indigo2.Gsu.EDU by klinzhai.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA19569; Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:54:08 EDT Received: by indigo2 (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for christian@geneva.rutgers.edu id AA23442; Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:49:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 16:38:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Patterson Subject: creation vs. evolution To: Group Moderator Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, This is in response to your request for sources on this debate. There is a good book written in favor of creation TITLE: The mystery of life's origin : reassessing current theories Charles B. Thaxton, Walter L. Bradley, Roger L. Olsen. PUBLISHER: New York : Philosophical Library, 1984. The book mainly addresses the primary origin of life and is rather technical, being written by chemists. It also contains a large number of references, but I would only recommend this book for someone with a good background in chemistry i.e. at least one year of college chemistry, though a layperson could read and understand the concepts if he or she were willing to really work hard. Hope this helps Steve From cnews@umr.edu Fri Jul 30 00:28:03 1993 Received: from news.cis.ohio-state.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA11807; Fri, 30 Jul 93 00:28:03 EDT Received: from phoenix.cc.umr.edu by news.cis.ohio-state.edu (5.61-kk/5.911008) id AA07420; Fri, 30 Jul 93 00:28:00 -0400 Received: from aurora.cc.umr.edu by phoenix.cc.umr.edu (5.65c/umr.edu-1.44) id <199307300427.AA29654@umr.edu>; Thu, 29 Jul 1993 23:27:57 -0500 From: cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Administration) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: scotth Subject: Re: NEEDED: Bible Study Resource(s) on Creation vs. Evolution References: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 04:27:52 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: mcs213g.cs.umr.edu Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO Sender: cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Administration) Message-Id: <1993Jul30.042752.21161@umr.edu> Lines: 31 Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@cis.ohio-state.edu espiritu@cgi.com (Rex Espiritu) writes: >I've been asked to lead an evening Bible Study a week from tonight on >Tuesday, August 3, 1993 on the topic of Creation vs. Evolution. We're >doing a series on Apologetics (just scratching the surface) for the rest >of this summer. > >I would greatly appreciate any pointers to resources which may be readily >available in time. > >[While I redirect arguments on this subject to talk.origins, I do >attempt to maintain lists of references, for purposes like this. > ... >--clh] How about "Reasons" by Josh McDowell and DonStewart, Living Books, (1981) ISBM 0-8423-5287-2, most of which is devoted to that very topic. Also helpful is a small section on "Don't Genesis 1 and 2 contain 2 contradictary accounts of creation?" in the book "Answers" by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, Here's Life Publishers, Campus Crusade for Christ, ISBN 0-918956-65-X, published 1983. Also contact: Institute for Creation Research; P.O. Box 2667; El Cajon, CA 92021-0667 Ask them for materials on this subject. -- Scott Hayes scotth@cs.umr.edu shayes@usgs.gov Standard Disclaimers Apply "The proper aim of giving is to put the recipient in a state where he no longer needs our gift." --C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: david@toshiba.com (David Lehmann) Subject: Re: NEEDED: Bible Study Resource(s) on Creation vs. Evolution Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Rex, In soc.religion.christian you write: >I've been asked to lead an evening Bible Study a week from tonight on >Tuesday, August 3, 1993 on the topic of Creation vs. Evolution. Would you like to try: "Life - How Did It Get Here? By Evolution Or By Creation?" published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1985 Yes, this was written by Jehovah's Witnesses. I realize you may have many differences with Jehovah's Witnesses, but on this subject you may find agreement. This book addresses many of the *theories* that evolutionist have created, and counters them with Bibical as well as secular evidence which exposes the evolutionary theory as being impossible. This book contains many illustrations and references. It may be exactly what your looking for. From news@eecs.umich.edu Tue Aug 3 12:41:31 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA24422; Tue, 3 Aug 93 12:41:31 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA01194; Tue, 3 Aug 93 12:41:30 -0400 Received: from zip.eecs.umich.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA18183; Tue, 3 Aug 93 12:41:24 -0400 Received: by zip.eecs.umich.edu id AA00400 ; Tue, 3 Aug 1993 12:40:35 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: quip.eecs.umich.edu!huggins From: huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: NEEDED: Bible Study Resource(s) on Creation vs. Evolution Date: 3 Aug 1993 16:40:34 GMT Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI Lines: 37 Message-Id: <23m4e2$ce@zip.eecs.umich.edu> References: Nntp-Posting-Host: quip.eecs.umich.edu In article espiritu@cgi.com (Rex Espiritu) writes: |I've been asked to lead an evening Bible Study a week from tonight on |Tuesday, August 3, 1993 on the topic of Creation vs. Evolution. We're |doing a series on Apologetics (just scratching the surface) for the rest |of this summer. | |I would greatly appreciate any pointers to resources which may be readily |available in time. Oops ... just a bit late, but others may be interested in this information. |[In addition to the references in the FAQ, the Journal of the American |Scientific Affiliation (a journal that explores issues at the |boundaries of science and Christianity) has had at least one issue |with articles from both viewpoints. The one I remember was in the |early 70's, but I think there have been more recent issues devoted to |this topic. --clh] Actually, there tends to be a continual stream of articles in the general area -- not so much creation vs. evolution, but recent articles I recall included critiques of Philip Johnson's book _Darwin_On_Trial_, discussions of flood geology, and other things that were way over my head. Incidentally, the Journal of the ASA changed its name a few years back and is now known as "Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith" or just "Perspectives". ASA also puts out a booklet called "Teaching Science in a Climate of Controversy", designed to be used as a supplement to high school courses on evolution. The point of the booklet is mainly that there are advocates at both extremes of the controversy who are apt to practice bad science, and that one must look critically at all claims in the field, regardless of which position they advocate. -- Jim Huggins, Univ. of Michigan huggins@eecs.umich.edu "You cannot pray to a personal computer no matter how user-friendly it is." -- W. Bingham Hunter From usenet@agate.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 3 14:13:38 1993 Received: from agate.Berkeley.EDU by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA01137; Tue, 3 Aug 93 14:13:38 EDT Received: by agate.berkeley.edu (5.67/1.33) id AA11909; Tue, 3 Aug 93 11:13:37 -0700 To: soc-religion-christian@agate.berkeley.edu Path: kos4mac17.berkeley.edu!user From: timi@mendel.berkeley.edu (Tim Ikeda) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: NEEDED: Bible Study Resource(s) on Creation vs. Evolution Followup-To: soc.religion.christian Date: 3 Aug 1993 18:13:36 GMT Organization: Plant Biology - UC Berkeley Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-Id: References: Nntp-Posting-Host: kos4mac17.berkeley.edu >I've been asked to lead an evening Bible Study a week from tonight on >Tuesday, August 3, 1993 on the topic of Creation vs. Evolution. For a good historical perspective of the modern creationist movement I would recommend: _The Creationists_ by Ronald L. Numbers New York : A. A. Knopf, 1992. This book skips the scientific debate of creation vs. evolution and instead details the history of various Christian creationist movements and creationist organizations starting from around 1900. Very interesting and, because it avoids the scientific debate, largely unbiased (read Ronald Number's introduction for more details). Most of the information is based on first-hand accounts and interviews. Regards, Tim Ikeda timi@mendel.berkeley.edu From chesepx@indigo1 Sun Oct 31 20:58:18 1993 Received: from klinzhai.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA04066; Sun, 31 Oct 93 20:58:18 EST Received: from indigo1.Gsu.EDU by klinzhai.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA03445; Sun, 31 Oct 93 20:58:16 EST Received: by indigo1 (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for christian@geneva.rutgers.edu id AA14116; Sun, 31 Oct 93 20:58:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 20:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Patterson Subject: Creationism To: Group Moderator Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If I remember correctly there was a discussion on this newsgroup concerning Creationism not long ago. I think that someone asked for books supporting Creationism. While the person knew of several oposed to Creationism, he or she wasn't aware of any supporting. Here's one in favor of Creationism: _Genesis and the Big Bang_ by Gerald L. Schroeder Schroeder is a physicist and addresses the creation of the universe and the primary origin of life in this book. He is Jewish and also has a few interesting things to say about some commentaries of th Old Testament. I also have a few technical articles that address the primary origin of life. Mainly these deal with the chemistry and thermodynamics of Evolution and describe why Evolution is a poor explanation of the primary origin of life. If anyone is interested I'll be glad to send the references, but I wouldn't recommend most to those that don't have a good background in organic chemistry. Steve Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: crout901@crow.csrv.uidaho.edu (Mark Crouter) Subject: re: Creationism Organization: University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu HI I am a creationist and a scientist. I have a book list with many books dealing witht he creation of the world. My list comes from the Institute of Creation Research, in El Cajon CA. If anyone is interested in getting their book list it can be had by writing at : Institute of Creation Research PO Box 2667 El Cajon, CA 92021 (619) 448-0900 Also there is another good book list out there and the address for it is: Master Books PO Box 1606 El Cajon, CA 92022 IF there is anyone out there that goes to ICR I would interested in talking with you because I plan on going to grad. school at ICR in about 2 years getting a MMasters in Science ED or Geology..i'm not sure yet Thanks and God Bless -Mark [Thanks. I'll add this to the list. --clh] Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul) Subject: Re: Creationism Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Here's the book I said was a "must-read" for anyone interested in the creationist:evolutionist debate: Science Held Hostage: What's Wrong with Creation Science AND Evolutionism Howard J. Van Till/Davis A. Young/Clarence Menninga ISBN 0-8308-1253-9 Calvin Center for Christian Scholarship 1988, InterVarsity Press Besides discussing the basic suppositions of the debate, the book takes a detailed look at several case studies, including the shrinking of the sun, the dust on the moon, salt levels in the ocean, the rock layers in the Grand Canyon, and critiques PW Atkins The Creation and Carl Sagan's Cosmos series. Most importantly, it examines the limits of what science can and cannot prove. -- paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... .. . . . . . university of nebraska - lincoln . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grace . . . . . . . . . . . . happens .