Path: christian Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian From: Naser Jamal Subject: Todays christainity --a joke? II Organization: University of California, Davis Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Greatings Dear good Christians, I hope all is well :) Before I start my argument and continue where I left off last time, I would like to thank Dave, Timothy, and Jon for their genuine efforts to enlighten me as well as themselves. May God lead all of us toward the true path. Now, let see: I stated earlier that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for the good Christian's sins. I claimed that he was a prophet and was taken up before crucifixion; so he was not crucified at all. Also I like to state that Prophet Jesus will be sent back by God before the Judgment Day to fight the anti-Christ. First I will counter some of Timothy, Jon, and Dave's argument and then I will present some arguments of my own. Timothy stated "Actually, the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus did die willingly, because He realized it was the will of God the Father for Jesus to die on the cross. I think you are mis-reading certain parts of the Bible." Wait a second, you believe that Jesus is God and now you are stating that "it was the will of God the Father." How many Gods are there. If Jesus is God, then why is he following someone elses (the Father's) will. Is there two Gods(the Father and the Son); Which one is stronger? I am assuming from your quote that the Father is stronger than Jesus. Believing in two Gods--Isn't that polytheism? Timothy also quoted,"My father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not I will, but Thou wilt.: (Matt. 26:39) I do agree that Jesus the prophet is willing to end his mission and he asks the Father, who from this quote is the only one that can "wilt". How can you say that Jesus is God when in fact he, in this quote, states that his "will" means nothing in comparison to the Father's "will". The Father is the true God. If God is all powerful and if Jesus was God, wouldn't his "will" be and it will be. In this case, can't I make the argument that Jesus is just a prophet who has given up and want's God to give the burden of spreading God's message to someone else, another prophet--"let this cup pass from me." Ok, jon wants to argue with use of the "Trinity" argument. Jon said," Christ is one element of the Trinity, the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Each element alone is God,and all three collectively are God. It is mystery beyond mortal comprehension. Jesus Christ was mortal man, and was also God in carnate." If "each element alone is God," then why would Jesus, being God, need to ask for the will of the Father and why did Jesus pray to the Father--the other God. He did pray to the Father: "And he (Jesus) went a little farther,and fell on his face and prayed, saying,"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Matt. 26:39) Now, if Jesus the son of Mary was God, why would he pray to the Father. If you are saying that Jesus is God and is equal to the Father, then is the Father (in another dimension) also praying to Jesus? If your answer is no, then you are saying that one God(Jesus) is weaker and needs the help of the other God(Father). I though God was self-sustaining and need to pray to no one? Another error in your quote,jon: You stated that God and Trinity is "mystery beyond mortal comprehension." Now, wait a second. You are saying that it is beyond your mortal comprehension and yet you are describing Jesus, as a son. Isn't son a manifestation our language. When we say son, we imply sexual orientation and we imply that there is a father, a mother, and possibly a sister. This concept of a son is totally a human and animal concept, because we have family and within this family we have father, mother, son, and daughter. With this family concept, we must have the concept of birth and death. If you say Jesus is the son, then who is the mother--Ok Mary. Is she God too. How about Jesus, does he have God brothers. Will his father die, will he grow old and become a father himself, will he get married to a female God. See, you are hidding behind "It is mystery beyond mortal comprehension", yet your whole "Trinity" concept is created from mortal concepts of a family --father, mother, son, daughter. We use this concept because animals have birth, death, family, and sexual orientation. If we were all uni-sex, we would not have either the "son" or the "daughter" concept. How can you label Jesus "son", and still call him God. God does not have sexual orientation because he lives forever and he does not need a family--He is eternal. Sorry for the long Mail, but I am determined to enlighten. Now, I believe that Dave wanted me to bring my proofs from the Bible that God is one and Jesus was his messenger: First I agree that Jesus refered to God as the Father. "And call no man your Father upon the earth: for one is your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9) This quote clearly states that the Father is one and Father presides in heaven. So Jesus is not the father because Jesus was on Earth, and Father (God) is in heaven & and is one. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, nor, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36) I assume that "day and hour" refers to the day of Judgement. If Jesus was God and God is all knowing and all powerful, then should he not know the "day and hour". Only the "Father" knows--not Jesus. So since Jesus does not know, he can't be all powerful and all knowing--he is not God. There are many instances where Jesus tells his companions that he will pray to the Father and the Father will grant them different things--doesn't this tell you that he is not God, rather he is a prophet. Well, I am not finished yet,I have many more quotes from the Bible which claims that Jesus was not God, and that there is another messenger after Jesus (peace be upon him). So, I shall conclude and continue another time. If you have read this far, I thank you and may God lead all of us toward rightousness and his true path. All are welcomed to respond, Thanks Naser ----- [Arrrggggghhhhhh. Not again. I'm sorry that it looks like people are refusing to say coherent things about the Trinity. Part of the problem is that this discussion is confusing the Trinity with the Incarnation. When Christians say that Christ is God, they are saying something that is technically correct but misleading. Christian theology actually is very clear that there's a difference between God and humanity, and that Jesus is a man. Thus he has most of the same limitations as any other man, and he prays to God. People somehow think Jesus' prayer and other human acts somehow disproves Christian theology. Quite the contrary: that's the whole point of the Incarnation. The Incarnation asserts that God somehow took this man as his way of being present with us. He so identified himself with Jesus that he experienced what Jesus experienced, and that in Jesus we see God. But Jesus remains a human being. That's why it is incarnation and not theophany. That is, this is not like the Greek myths where a god took on the appearance of humanity in order to walk around on eath. Jesus is a real human being. There's a certain indirectness here. God experiences birth and death, but he experienced it indirectly, because of his union with Jesus. Similarly, we see God through Jesus because Jesus' character and life allow that. But we're seeing God through a human image. The NT says "He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power." But this is a human reflection and image. Jesus is a human being, but one that God has taken to be his way of being present with humanity. So the most direct answer to why Jesus prays to his Father is because Jesus is a human being, and prayer is the way human beings communicate with God. Yet if we take seriously the concept that Jesus shows us God, there's a bit more to be said. Jesus is obedient to the Father. He prays to the Father, defers to the Father, and accepts the Father's will. If Jesus shows us God, then this says that God is obedient to God. This implies that there's enough distinction within God that he can experience both "sides" of the relationship of love: Father and Son. A loving God causes no metaphysical problems if he only loves beings he created. But this would mean that God couldn't love until he had created the universe. It would mean that love isn't intrinsic to God. It would also imply that God experience only one "side" of love -- the love of the Father. But if Jesus shows us God as he really is, then love is intrinsic to God, and God experiences the obedient love of the Son as well as the love of a Father. Thus there's got to be enough of a distinction within God to allow the relationship of love to exist within him. So in summary, Jesus' prayer to his Father is the human reflection or stamp (using the words of Hebrews) of a loving relationship that exists within God himself. This sounds rather abstruse, but in fact it has very direct consequences for the Christian life. Christians believe in grace. When God calls for us to obey him, he also gives us the ability to obey. In some ideas of God, God is an omnipotent being completely separated from humanity. For Christians, God has experienced the kind of love he wants from us, and is inviting us to join him. --clh]