From news@dejanews.com Sun Oct 22 05:18:15 2000 Return-Path: Received: from sjc3-1.relay.mail.uu.net (sjc3-1.relay.mail.uu.net [199.171.54.122]) by aramis.rutgers.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05412 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.deja.com by sjc3sosrv11.alter.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: [64.57.170.34]) id QQjlzh11818 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:18:13 GMT Received: from nnrp1.deja.com (nnrp1.deja.com [10.12.2.16]) by mail.deja.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09376 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 04:18:12 -0500 Received: (news@localhost) by nnrp1.deja.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id EAA22421; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 04:18:06 -0500 To: soc-religion-christian@moderators.isc.org Path: not-for-mail From: pooua@aol.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: b Re: Jesus Myth Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:18:09 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 236 Message-ID: <8subce$lsk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8sj3pm$m3s$28@newsmonger.rutgers.edu> <8slsv0$ceb$5@newsmonger.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.217.196.195 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 22 09:18:09 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 64.217.196.195 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpooua In article <8slsv0$ceb$5@newsmonger.rutgers.edu>, bushbadee@aol.com (BUSHBADEE) wrote: [snip] > Prior to Nazereth becomeing a villiage it was a farm. > You can read about the explorations there in BAR a couple > months ago. They found an olive press there and some farm > impliments in the last dig. > > --- > > [The web page http://www.csec.ac.uk/farm.htm was written by one of > the people doing that exploration. He does not consider the find > inconsistent with the existence of a village there. Indeed he > refers to a Nazareth Village in Jesus' time. --clh] I have not taken the time to reply to this topic, but as I read through the posts, I believe I missed the point that Bushbadee was trying to make. B, what difference does it make whether Nazareth was a farm in the 1st Century or not, so far as Jesus having been "of Nazareth"? Don't people live on farms? How does Nazareth-as-farm refute the claim that Jesus grew up in that area? Consider the following text: "The site where Nazareth exists today was founded and settled between 600-900 BCE. .... The villages and farms ... at the time of Jesus consisted of walled terraces, watch towers, and rock quarries. ... "Archaeological excavations conducted in Nazareth since 1955 have shown that Nazareth was a small agricultural village settled by a few dozen families. Pottery remains testify a continuous settlement during that period (600-900 BCE). After those years there was a break in settlement until about the year 200 BCE. It is believed that first-century Nazareth was a village comprised of approximately twenty-five families. "Since then [200 B.C.], the site of Nazareth has been consistently inhabited. ... The agricultural aspect of the city was discovered from the discoveries of oil mills and mill stones." http://www.skidmore.edu/~m_mcgort/history.html http://www.holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm "Sometimes some Muslims pick up on a very outdated atheist critique that Nazareth didn't even exist in Jesus time. Here is a response from a resident of Nazareth, February 1998. "Perhaps the Muslim 'scholar' referred to the fact that there was no Christian Church in Nazareth until Queen Helena, Constantine's mother came through Nazareth on her famous Holy Land trip in the fourth century and had the little basilica built over Mary's Well to mark the spot of the annunciation by the angel Gabriel. They were recently repairing the road in front of the Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation at Mary's Well in Nazareth. They discovered earlier ruins in the process, so now the whole plaza in front of the church is now an archeological site and you cannot drive a car through! "Down the road in the center of town the huge Basilica to the Annunciation built by the Roman Catholics preserves as its altar the first Century cave home of the Virgin Mary and its foundations are built over numerous cave dwellings. They have a little archeological museum with artifacts found during this period. Up the hill is the Church of Joseph built over caves which they claim were used as carpenter shops. Across the street the Sister's of Nazareth Hospice is built over an ancient first century or earlier grave with the huge rolling stone door still in place. A block away (modern term!) the Greek Catholic Church in the market is built next to the ancient synagogue that Jesus read the Torah in and the people took him out to throw him off the hill the city was built on. "So, anyone with eyes to see needs no proof of the existence of Nazareth in the first century and many centuries earlier! Nazareth was know as a city of refuge, tucked away in a mountain valley above the Valley of Meggido, or Esdraelon. It was a sleeply little hollow less than 2-3 miles from the metropolis Zippori where Mary's mother was from. Zippori has recently been excavated by Duke University and is now one of the largest archeological sites in the country which shows first century and earlier synagogues and homes with beautiful mosaics still intact." http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/nazareth.html http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nazy.html "Digging for History or Politics in Israel?" Thursday, August 17, 2000 By Laureen Fagan "ZIPPORI, Israel — The silence on this hilltop archaeological site near Nazareth in northern Israel is broken only by an occasional gust of wind and the murmur of tourists. ... "In a part of the world where the hot blood of disputed land rights has run through thousands of years, the evidence of antiquity can be used as a political weapon if invoked to demonstrate Jewish or Palestinian claims of heritage. "Two years ago, Palestinian archaeologists said they had found evidence that their ancestors established 5,000-year- old Caananite roots near Nablus and that this proved an historical right to the land that precedes that of the ancient Israelites. "Palestinian negotiators have also said they will seek compensation from Israel for the value of antiquities that have been removed from occupied lands captured by Israel in 1967. "Some Israeli archaeological sites claim the same kind of historical longevity, and Israelis have countered Palestinian claims with a few of their own. "Earlier this year archaeologists protested against the disruption of land around the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, where they believe Moslem religious leaders are systematically erasing traces of Jewish roots in Jerusalem and thus claims to the city. ... "At Zippori, archaeologist Ze'ev Weiss is trying to avoid the pitfalls. He believes archaeology must be devoid of politics. "'In general, archaeology is not political today,' Weiss said. 'Archaeology is pure academic work. The results are presented to an international audience who evaluate my interpretation, but nothing is done to serve any ideology.'" http://www.foxnews.com/science/081700/israel.sml The Nazareth Village Farm "In November 1996 Stephen Pfann of the Center for the Study of Early Chistianity identified an ancient wine press associated with agricultural terraces on the grounds of Nazareth Hospital and the land adjacent to it. Potsherds were found on the surface of the terraces dating from various periods beginning with the early to late Roman period. An archaeological survey of the surface of the land adjacent to Nazareth Hospital was conducted in February by Ross Voss, R. Mikel Rapuano, Stephen Pfann, and Jan Karnis, all from the Center for the Study of Early Christianity. Two distinct areas were identified which are defined by the type of terracing found there. The first season of Excavation took place April 22nd until May 6th 1997 under the auspices of the Center for the Study of Early Christianity and under the joint directorship of Ross Voss and Stephen Pfann. "Area A: A dry farm Location ... "Area B: An irrigated ³wet² farm. ... "The ruins of three watchtowers surmount the walls of three separate terraces. "Structures: Three watchtowers, agricultural terraces, possible farmhouse, aqueducts, a threshing floor and a tomb (all need to be investigated), one column drum type crushing stone. "Area C: Another part of the dry farm. ... "Areas A, B and C in summary The valley along with its slopes likely comprises the property of a single familyıs farm which produced a variety of crops. This includes areas A, B and C. The center of the farm should be identified with the watchtowers, the terraces and the water dispersement system. Most of the extent of the original farm is therefore almost entirely preserved. This farm remains the most important, and perhaps the only, witness to the life and livelihoods of the ancient Nazarenes. It remains today as the last vestiges of virgin farmland directly connected with the ancient village of Nazareth. "The watchtowers which housed staff, animals and equipment served to protect the nearby crops. It was from here that the growing crops would be carefully monitored by a family member, a servant, or a hireling. At the time of harvest the various families would shelter here from the heat of midday, and during the evening, the sounds of story-telling, music and singing could no doubt be heard. The singing of families in the vineyard resounded on these terraces at the time of harvest and the music of the flute echoed as the workers stomped the grapes at the winepress. "It was here that inquisitive children would play and watch life on the terraces. It was here that a boy named Jesus from the village of Nazareth observed life and drew in deep impressions and images. These images were later brought to mind as He spoke in parables concerning Godıs relationship with man and of the great hope of His Kingdom." http://www.csec.ac.uk/farm.htm So, it appears that the archeological finds mentioned in "BAR" would have been from one of several farms that existed in Nazareth in the 1st Century. On a side note, I visited Nazareth briefly in 1985, as a tourist. I was in the Navy, and my ship had moored in Haifa. My biggest impression of Israel was that everything was much smaller than I had imagined. I had seen many pictures of Jerusalem, and I imagined the Dome of the Rock to be a towering structure similiar in size to the Superdome. I was quite surprised when my tour bus drove past the city--I almost blurted, "It's only a little wooden box!" That's what it looked like to me, from the road; a white, wooden box-like house with a large gold dome on top. Nazareth was hardly distinguishable from the tiny Mexican village I had visited years earlier, except for the large, white, modern church the dominated the town like a giant among ants. From what I read on the Web, Nazareth has undergone significant change in the last 5 years. -- Richard Alexander Richard's Electronic Kingdom http://members.aol.com/pooua Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.