From blais@uts.cc.utexas.edu Wed Jul 6 08:07:10 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA14972; Wed, 6 Jul 94 08:07:10 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (maildrop) id QQwxjk07596; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 08:07:04 -0400 Received: from curly.cc.utexas.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (relay) id QQwxjk11262; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 08:07:02 -0400 Received: (from blais@localhost) by curly.cc.utexas.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6/cc-uts-1.5) id HAA13995; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:07:01 -0500 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: curly.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: blais@uts.cc.utexas.edu (Donald E. Blais) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Lilith Date: 6 Jul 1994 07:06:59 -0500 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 18 Message-Id: <2ve6p3$dl7@curly.cc.utexas.edu> References: In article , Alan Tarica wrote: > > Hello. This has been a very enlightening newsgroup. I have a question. >I happen to notice in the dictionary that Lilith was Adam's first wife prior >to Eve's creation. Does anyone have any more information about this. Please >email. Thanks. The traditions concerning Lilith are found in... Graves, Roberts and Raphael Patai Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis New York: Greenwich House, 1983 -- Donald E. Blais Internet: blais@utexas.edu UTexas Computation Center UUCP: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!blais Austin, TX 78712 Phone: +1 512-471-6387 +1 512-471-3241 From jonh@david.wheaton.edu Wed Jul 6 21:46:31 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA05777; Wed, 6 Jul 94 21:46:31 EDT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (maildrop) id QQwxln27193; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 21:46:30 -0400 Received: from david.wheaton.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (relay) id QQwxln28372; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 21:46:23 -0400 Received: by david.wheaton.edu id AA26550 (5.67b8+/IDA-1.5 for soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net); Wed, 6 Jul 1994 20:47:46 -0500 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: not-for-mail From: jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Gnosticism (was Re: Lilith) Date: 6 Jul 1994 20:47:44 -0500 Organization: Wheaton College, Wheaton IL Lines: 78 Message-Id: <2vfms0$ptk@david.wheaton.edu> References: In article , will Maycroft wrote: >In a previous article, atarica@enh.nist.gov (Alan Tarica) says: >> Hello. This has been a very enlightening newsgroup. I have a question. >>I happen to notice in the dictionary that Lilith was Adam's first wife prior >>to Eve's creation. Does anyone have any more information about this. Please >>email. Thanks. > The first Q is _what dictionary are you using? I have never heard that >theory before, and one gets to see an extra wide variety of biblical >theories while surfing the net. > My only reference on a question like this is that I don't know of >anywhere in the Bible it suggests that idea. What I've always read is >that all the animals had mates and Adam didn't, so God created Eve... I posted this one response by e-mail, but am writing to the group proper due to a more general interest. The name 'Lilith' occurs at one point in Scripture, in the middle of Isaiah. From context, it is apparent that this is to be understood as the name of a demon. Aside from that, Lilith is a notable figure in Gnostic heresy. One of the notable tendencies among heresies is to distort the fundamental simplicity of the Gospel message. The Judaizers, where orthodox Christians had preached the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ crucified, insisted in appending to the works of faith a dietary code, elaborate calendar, ... Gnosticism, in this regard, was even worse. According to Gnosticism, we are saved by acquiring wisdom and knowledge. Where Christianity is simple and freely proclaimed, Gnosticism has to be complicated, intricate, and obfuscated; deep secrets reserved for the elite. So, instead of Adam having one wife -- Eve -- Gnosticism had to have Lilith be the wife before Eve, in an elaborate tale of ... You get the picture. There are several Gnostic ideas which have been cropping up lately. There are three which I think should be mentioned: 1: We are saved by wisdom and knowledge. This is patently false. While we are to grow in wisdom and knowledge, it is within a context of faith. The mark of a Christian is love, not being able to recite such and such many Bible verses or explain such and such many doctrines. Solomon, who was wiser than anyone here on s.r.c, is damned. When we pursue wisdom, it must be within a proper context. 2: The spiritual is attained by escape from the physical; an ascetic code, "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!" (as summarized by Paul) will draw us near to God. In the most extreme form, this idea led to denial of Christ's physical incarnation, and the blessedness of the hope that we await in the bodily resurrection. Christ, who was the second Adam and the model of perfection, ate and drank enough to be accused of being a glutton and a drunkard; his first miracle consisted of turning water into wine. Paul spoke of marriage and foods and then everything created by God as good, "to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." (I Tim. 4:1-5). It is God who created the forests and the sunsets; we spit on a gift when we act as if we will become more spiritual by refusing to enjoy them. 3: Good and evil are a balanced pair which bear a higher order unity. Good exists to accomplish its own ends; the rebellion in which evil stands in no wise makes it a balancing force to serve a higher weal. Evil does not balance good. Good balances good. I've made this post long enough. At any rate, Gnosticism is a false knowledge which is really not knowledge at all; it is heresy to be refuted at every occurence. ################################################################################ # "God, give me mountains # "And the greatest # Jonathan Hayward # # to climb and the # of these is love." # Jonathan_Hayward@wheaton.edu # # strength for climbing." # I Corinthians 13:13 # jhayward@imsa.edu # ################################################################################ From news@news.delphi.com Wed Jul 6 21:55:20 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA06065; Wed, 6 Jul 94 21:55:20 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (maildrop) id QQwxln27378; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 21:55:19 -0400 Received: from news.delphi.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (relay) id QQwxln02528; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 21:55:18 -0400 Received: (news@localhost) by news.delphi.com (UCB+Delphi/0.2) id VAA22142; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 21:39:40 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: usenet From: redaxe@delphi.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Lilith Date: Wed, 6 Jul 94 21:39:39 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 34 Message-Id: References: Nntp-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com X-To: Alan Tarica Alan Tarica writes: > Hello. This has been a very enlightening newsgroup. I have a > question. I happen to notice in the dictionary that Lilith was > Adam's first wife prior to Eve's creation. Does anyone have any > more information about this. Please email. Thanks. According to medieval Jewish folklore, Lillith was Adam's first wife. However, this belief has absolutely no scriptural basis that I am aware of (I am not Jewish). It is believed that the name was originally the Assyrian storm god. In older Jewish folklore, it was the name of a female demon/vampiress child-killer. One of the reasons, I've heard, is that if you read Gen 1:27, it talks about how God created man, both male and female. Yet, in the second chapter, Adam has no wife! OTOH, the way I understand it, Jewish narration often went on a thematic basis: they would discuss along a theme, and sometimes "get ahead of themselves" in an attempt to keep the theme clear, and then go back and "fill in the blanks". So, in other words, Gen 1 is the story of the creation, and details are left out in order to present the theme. Gen 2 goes back and details the creation of Eve and God's ordination of marriage. (For evidence of this type of writing, see the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, as well as Esther and other history books.) I suspect that the mingling of cultures led to some false legends springing up. In Him, Darren From quixote@netcom.com Thu Jul 7 17:50:03 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA21490; Thu, 7 Jul 94 17:50:03 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (maildrop) id QQwxop10932; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:50:02 -0400 Received: from netcom.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (relay) id QQwxop22190; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:49:54 -0400 Received: by netcom.com (8.6.8.1/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id OAA28653; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:50:16 -0700 Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: quixote From: quixote@netcom.com (Don Hosek) Subject: Re: Lilith Message-Id: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:50:12 GMT Lines: 58 Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net In article , will Maycroft wrote: >In a previous article, atarica@enh.nist.gov (Alan Tarica) says: >> Hello. This has been a very enlightening newsgroup. I have a question. >>I happen to notice in the dictionary that Lilith was Adam's first wife prior >>to Eve's creation. Does anyone have any more information about this. Please >>email. Thanks. > The first Q is _what dictionary are you using? I have never heard that >theory before, and one gets to see an extra wide variety of biblical >theories while surfing the net. > My only reference on a question like this is that I don't know of >anywhere in the Bible it suggests that idea. What I've always read is >that all the animals had mates and Adam didn't, so God created Eve... >[I believe most of the ideas about Lilith are from Jewish folklore. >But I recall vaguely that there's one passage in the OT that can >be taken as a reference to her. There was a detailed posting >on this a while ago, which I should have saved as an FAQ. If >someone will repost it, I'll save it this time. --clh] The origin of the Lilith story comes from the Talmudic commentary on the verse in Genesis 1: "...male and female he created them..." Various explanations of this are put forth in different midrashim. One was that until Eve was created, Adam was a hermaphrodite (which is why the Hebrew word for face, panim, is plural in form). The relevant story, however, is that of Lilith, Adam's first wife. She refused to have sex with Adam because he insisted on being on top, and finally used the power of the Tetragramaton (the proper pronunciation of the Lord's holy name) to fly out of the Garden of Eden. Meanwhile, Eve was created from Adam's rib as a more submissive wife who would stay on the bottom during sex. When Lilith landed, it was on the shores of the Red Sea. It was here that she met with the demons--beings who were souls left over from creation. They were also all male and perfectly willing to be on the bottom, so they made Lilith their queen. Her husband is named Asmodeus oin some folk tales. There are other folk tales which name her son as well. According to legend Lilith haunts the wilds and deserted cities. She's mentioned somewhere in the Wisdom books, I forget where. Proverbs, I think. Traditionally she's associated with dangers to pregnant women and small children and their are traditions associated with specially inscribed coins which are meant to protect against her. This is all from memory, so I'm sure there are a few omissions and/or inaccuracies in it. The Reader's Encyclopedia has a short article giving some of the details above. Also worth checking out are Howard Schwartz's collections of Jewish folktales, particularly Lilith's Cave. -- Don Hosek "The Only Solution is Love" Quixote Digital Typography -Dorothy Day Publishers of _Serif: The Magazine of Type and Typography_ 909-621-1291 Current reading: _Nothing/Doting/ FAX: 909-625-1342 Blindness_ (Green), _Household dhosek@quixote.com of Faith_ (Taves) From blais@uts.cc.utexas.edu Fri Jul 8 23:57:22 1994 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA10367; Fri, 8 Jul 94 23:57:22 EDT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (maildrop) id QQwxtf14080; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 23:57:22 -0400 Received: from curly.cc.utexas.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (relay) id QQwxtf17628; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 23:57:18 -0400 Received: (from blais@localhost) by curly.cc.utexas.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6/cc-uts-1.6) id WAA05061; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 22:57:19 -0500 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: curly.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: blais@uts.cc.utexas.edu (Donald E. Blais) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Lilith Date: 8 Jul 1994 22:57:17 -0500 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 24 Message-Id: <2vl76t$4u2@curly.cc.utexas.edu> References: In article , Alan Tarica wrote: > > Hello. This has been a very enlightening newsgroup. I have a question. >I happen to notice in the dictionary that Lilith was Adam's first wife prior >to Eve's creation. Does anyone have any more information about this. Please >email. Thanks. Isaiah 34:14 ysh`yh 34,14 Wildcats shall meet hyenas, wpgshw Syym 't-'yym Goat-demons shall greet each other; ws`yr `l-r`hw yqr' There too the lilith shall repose 'k-shm hrgy`h lylyt And find herself a resting place. wmS'h lh mnwH Though Lilith as the wife of Adam does not occur in the Hebrew bible, the word does occur in the book of Isaiah. The KJV translates the word as "screech owl". The NIV translates it "night creatures". The NJB and the JPS transliterate it, thereby preserving its recognition. -- Donald E. Blais Internet: blais@utexas.edu UTexas Computation Center UUCP: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!blais Austin, TX 78712 Phone: +1 512-471-6387 +1 512-471-3241