From news@magus.cs.utah.edu Wed Jan 3 13:19:57 1996 Return-Path: news@magus.cs.utah.edu Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by aramis.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq+grosshack/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA22985 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:19:52 -0500 Received: from cs.utah.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwyj25582; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from magus.cs.utah.edu by cs.utah.edu (8.6.12/utah-2.21-cs) id LAA13566; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:04:32 -0700 Received: by magus.cs.utah.edu (5.67b/utah-2.15sun-leaf) id AA21968; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:04:27 -0700 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: sal.cs.utah.edu!jwindley From: jwindley@sal.cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians? (no) Date: 3 Jan 1996 18:04:26 GMT Organization: University of Utah Computer Science Department Lines: 137 Message-Id: <4cegfa$jnn@magus.cs.utah.edu> References: <4cd8no$8hn@farside.rutgers.edu> Nntp-Posting-Host: sal.cs.utah.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Chris Mammen (cmammen@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : The question is not if all Christians agree about everything, but if : Mormons ARE Christians. I contend they are not. The statement that not all Christians agree on all points of doctrine is very relevant. You imply that in order to be called Christian, certain doctrines must be held and certain others must be rejected. You therefore define Christianity in terms of prescribed beliefs. But not all Christians agree on all beliefs. Nor do they agree on what beliefs are important. In short, Christian scholars admit there is no clear definition of Christianity in terms of doctrine, therefore any definition so based will include some non-Christian groups and exclude some Christian ones. That's why a better definition of Christianity does not place so much emphasis on specific doctrines and interpretations, but on acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Son of God, which Mormons quite strongly believe. : Christians are told to beware of false teachers that will lead them : astray. Christians are also told that ravenous wolves would enter, and that the flock would not be spared. In other words, the Christian church as established by Jesus and preached by the apostles was not intended to last in that form forever. Jesus and the apostles are quite clear in their prediction of the apostasy. Although your opinion may vary, a valid historical argument can be made that such an apostasy actually did occur. References have been provided in this newsgroup to scholarly material supporting this conclusion. Your statement is therefore a two-edged sword. You proceed from the assumption that your traditional beliefs are what the apostles preached. Because of this, you assume that any belief not part of your traditional view must therefore be the product of a false teacher. I do not share your assumption that the current Christian church teaches the same doctrine as that formed by Jesus, therefore I do not subscribe to your logic. By assuming, as I do, an apostasy, I can just as easily argue that your beliefs are the product of false teachings, spread by the Greek philosphers who converted to Christianity. : The Bible is God's Word, it is 100% true and complete, lacking : nothing -- we don't need "another version." First of all, the Book of Mormon and other LDS scripture is not intended to supplant the Bible or to take precendence over it. The Book of Mormon is designed to stand as an additional witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I see no evidence that the Bible is complete. While its doctrines may be 100% true, there are indeed difficulties involving its translation and transmission which must be reckoned with by the modern Christian. Mormons do this by believing in the Bible "so far as it is translated correctly," merely acknowledging the fact that errors in translation have at times occurred and our beliefs need not suffer as a result. : The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a cult, not a form : of Christianity. That's your opinion. : I give as a very well-documented reference the book : called THE GODMAKERS. Tee hee. Boy are you ever in for a revelation. : Any Mormon who reads this posting should not : become hostile (or take me at my word) before checking out the book. I don't take you at your word, and I have checked out the book to a far greater extent than most of its mainstream Christian readers. For starters, the National Council of Christians and Jews and the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith have both issued official public statements condemning _The God Makers_ as a deliberately misleading slam on Mormonism. Authors Ed Decker and Dave Hunt attempted to use the "evidence" they collected in a class action suit against the LDS Church. They were laughed out of every law office they visited. Decker and Hunt claimed to document everything. They based much of their material on the work of Jerald and Sandra Tanner, noted critics of Mormonism. The Tanners have denouced Decker and Hunt and objected to the use of their material in Decker's book. Some material was taken from a series of articles appearing in the _Denver Post_. Upon checking the citations, it was discovered that the _Post_ was more frequently misquoted than quoted correctly, and that Decker used the _Post_'s authority to substantiate claims which the source articles specifically avoided making. The sociological statistics cited for Utah were simply made up. When checked with the _Statistical Abstract of the United States_ for the 1980 census, the figures given were far different than Decker claimed. A large portion of the quotes have been doctored. Decker and Hunt add words in square brackets [] which completely alter the meaning. They also use ellipses ... to connect passages from two completely different sermons in an attempt to manufacture a quote. Their citations are frequently only copied from their sources and do not actually say what is claimed. And several footnotes were simply made up -- the sources do not exist. The text is filled with sensationalist and melodramatic prose, reading less like a scholarly work and more like a tabloid. Undocumented horror stories account for a fair amount of Decker's "evidence." In short, _The God Makers_ is without a doubt the least reliable source of information on Mormonism. If all you know about Mormonism comes from this work, you know nothing. : The overwhelming majority of Mormons do not know the darkest secrets : of their leaders and history and are good people who actually believe : that they are Christians. Many of the "dark secrets" are nothing more than gossip dredged up by anti-Mormon authors specifically looking for dirt. And the overwhelming majority of Mormons actually believe they are Christians. They look to Jesus as their example and their Savior, and do their best to lead Christ-like lives. Ipso facto they are Christians. : READ the book for yourself! It's worth your time! It's not worth anyone's time, Mormon or otherwise. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jay Windley * University of Utah * Salt Lake City jwindley@cs.utah.edu http://www.cs.utah.edu/~jwindley/ --- I remember when the Information Superhighway was a footpath. ---