From news@aiai.ed.ac.uk Thu Jan 7 05:01:34 1993 Received: from ben.uknet.ac.uk by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA27931; Thu, 7 Jan 93 05:01:34 EST Received: from eros.uknet.ac.uk by ben.uknet.ac.uk via UKIP with SMTP (PP) id ; Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:01:06 +0000 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk by eros.uknet.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP (PP) id <7537-0@eros.uknet.ac.uk>; Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:01:14 +0000 To: soc-religion-christian@uknet.ac.uk Path: aiai!jkk From: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Hal Lindsay's Writings on Prophesy Message-Id: <8107@skye.ed.ac.uk> Date: 7 Jan 93 10:01:53 GMT References: Sender: news@aiai.ed.ac.uk Reply-To: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston) Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland Lines: 72 In article anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu writes: >In the early 1970's, Hal Lindsey wrote many books on the end times, >including "The Late Great Planet Earth", "There's a New World Coming", and >"The Liberation of Planet Earth". As a new Christian back then, I found >them interesting, and they challenged me to see the Bible as very >relevant to our times. I thought that he sometimes went too far in trying >to correlate Scripture verses with current events, but that the main points >of his books were good. > >I believe in "You hall know them by their fruits" when it comes to >evaluating Christian authors, especially for my children's consumption. >I know nothing about Hal Lindsey's life, ministry, etc, nor about >whether his writings are still generally accepted as they were 20 years >ago. Can anyone give me more information? > Hal Lindsey's (sp?) ministry appears to have been a beneficial one. I came across a book recently where the author explains how one of Lindsey's sermons greatly benefitted her in her Christian life. If I remember rightly, the sermon was entitled "Any Old Clay Pot Will Do", using the image of a potter (God) moulding clay (us) to explain that God can use absolutely anyone he chooses, no matter how worthless they might think they are, because he always re-moulds pots before he uses them anyway. As for the books you mention above, here is a VERY brief summary of 2nd coming theology. (This used to be a really hot topic of debate in the 60s and 70s). There are generally four viewpoints held by Christians about what will happen at the 2nd coming: 1) Pre-millenialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven before the "thousand years of tribulation" predicted in the book of Revelation. Lindsey's books take this viewpoint, and proceed to instantiate other prophecies in Revelation and elsewhere with current world events, to suggest that the 2nd coming is very close. As far as I understand, pre-millenialism is less widely believed now than it used to be, and Lindsey's writings are not considered valid by anyone who has seriously studied the subject. 2) Post-millenialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven after enduring the 1000 years of tribulation 3) Amillenialism - there won't be a literal "thousand years of tribulation" 4) Dispensationalism. There's a FAQ on this complex subject (or at least, a summary of people's views). To summarise briefly, history is supposed to be divided into a number of time periods, or "dispensations", in which God works in slightly different ways - e.g. Adam to Noah was one dispensation, when God's intervention in human affairs appears to be slight, but Moses to Christ was another, because God then operated through the Law. We are currently in the second last dispensation, with the last one - the Kingdom of God - occurring after the 2nd coming. Personally, I have argued against dispensationalism, on the grounds that its theology excludes the existence of supernatural spiritual gifts today (they are assumed to belong to the "establishment of the church" dispensation), that its placement of the Kingdom of God in the future does not agree with Jesus' sayings, and that it lacks Biblical justification - but this is supposed to be a brief summary. Why does all this matter? Principally because it affects how people live today: belief in pre-millenialism, especially if it is believed that the 2nd coming is close, gives a tremendous impetus to evangelism; belief in dispensationalism rules out the existence and use of spiritual gifts in churches; belief in post-millenialism may produce a defensive attitude of "the world is continually getting worse but the church must hold out against its pressures". For myself, I can't rule out any option apart from dispensationalism. For yourself, if you can persuade your daughter to take Hal Lindsey's specific statements with a pinch of salt, reading his books may awaken her vision for evangelism in a way that nothing else could. John Kingston, | Knowledge Engineering Methods Group, | The heart of the problem AIAI, University of Edinburgh | is the problem of the heart E-mail jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk, phone 031-650 2736 | From jfb@macsch.com Fri Jan 8 21:29:24 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA19403; Fri, 8 Jan 93 21:29:24 EST Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA28772; Fri, 8 Jan 93 21:29:22 -0500 Received: from macsch.com (via DRACO.MACSCH.COM) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA02979; Fri, 8 Jan 93 21:29:28 -0500 Received: by macsch.com (5.61/SMI-4.1-07) id AA03667; Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:29:17 -0800 Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: jfb From: jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette) Subject: Re: Hal Lindsay's Writings on Prophesy Message-Id: <1993Jan9.022913.3629@draco.macsch.com> Sender: jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette) Organization: MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 02:29:13 GMT Apparently-To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Hello John, I've read your version of the different viewpoints held by Christians about what will happen at the 2nd coming. I believe that what you written appears to confound various aspects of the different views. >1) Pre-millennialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven before the >"thousand years of tribulation" predicted in the book of Revelation. Lindsey's >books take this viewpoint, and proceed to instantiate other prophecies in >Revelation and elsewhere with current world events, to suggest that the 2nd >coming is very close. As far as I understand, Pre-millennialism is less widely >believed now than it used to be, and Lindsey's writings are not considered >valid by anyone who has seriously studied the subject. There is no belief in a "thousand years of tribulation". The event known as the great tribulation is described in Matt. 24, the olivet discourse. There are two common views concerning this tribulation period. One view is that Jesus's prophecy of this tribulation was historically fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus in A.D. 70. The other view is that this tribulation period is a future event that takes place immediately before Christ's 2nd coming in judgment. Dispensationalists like Hal Lindsey hold that this tribulation occurs during the 70th week of Daniel, a 7 year period that transpires immediately before Christ's 2nd coming. Dispensationalists believe in a two phase return of Christ. Christ returns secretly at the start of the 7 years to resurrect all the Christians and remove them to heaven. This is the imminent return of Christ to rapture the church. (For more on the rapture get the book _The Rapture Pre-, Mid-, or Post-tribulational?_ by four authors; Richard R. Reiter, Gleason L. Archer, Paul D. Feinberg, and Douglas J, Moo.) Christ's 2nd coming in judgment occurs at the end of the 7 years. In all cases the tribulation is a short period of time, no more than a few years. The 1000 year millennium is a period where Christ rules on the earth and the world is a paradise. You are correct in saying that Hal Lindsey promotes the idea that the 2nd coming is an event that will occur soon. This idea should not be confounded with the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ. This teaching says that Christ could return at any moment. There are no events that necessarily precede His return. It is possible, however, that the 2nd coming could occur 1000 years from now. The doctrine of the imminent return is a Dispensational distinctive, but there are others who teach it as well such as J. Barton Payne who wrote _The Imminent Appearing of Christ_. Pre-millennialists can be categorized as follows: 1.) Historic pre-millennial. The church from the time of Augustine to the 19th century rejected pre-millennial teachings as did many, if not most of the church fathers. There were some church fathers, however, who it appears were pre-millennial. For example, Justin Martyr. Historical pre-millennial thinkers, however, have much more in common with amillennialists and post-millennialists than with the other variety of pre-millennial. My own bias is for this position. George E. Ladd who wrote _The Blessed Hope_ and _The Gospel of the Kingdom_ and who taught at Fuller Theological Seminary was an advocate for this position. Fuller Seminary is one of the leading American "evangelical" seminaries. It has fallen in some disfavor with many American evangelicals and fundamentalists because the school no longer holds to the doctrine of inerrancy. 2.) Dispensational pre-millennial. This position advocates Pre-millennialism as part of the Dispensational system of prophetic teaching. A book that deals with this system in some detail is J. Dwight Pentecost's book _Things to Come_. Pentecost is a teacher at Dallas Theological Seminary. Hal Lindsey graduated from Dallas. I posted a couple weeks back a brief summary of Dispensational teaching. I have observed that our moderator has saved this summary in his FAQ collection on info.rutgers.edu, in /pub/soc.religion.christian/others. There are teachers of note who are dispensationalistic, but who rejects one of the major distinctive, the pre-tribulational rapture. A book from this perspective is _The Church and the Tribulation_ by Robert H. Gundry. >2) Post-millennialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven after >enduring the 1000 years of tribulation See above. My understanding of Post-millennialism is that the church will eventually evangelize the whole world and bring about a 1000 reign of universal peace and righteousness before Christ's return. There have been some good posts relating this to Dominion theology. >3) Amillennialism - there won't be a literal "thousand years of tribulation" If you had said `literal millennium' you would be correct. The A-mill millennium is a figure of the spiritual and heavenly reign of Christ. >4) Dispensationalism. There's a FAQ on this complex subject (or at least, a >summary of people's views). To summarize briefly, history is supposed to be >divided into a number of time periods, or "dispensations", in which God works >in slightly different ways - e.g. Adam to Noah was one dispensation, when >God's intervention in human affairs appears to be slight, but Moses to Christ >was another, because God then operated through the Law. We are currently in >the second last dispensation, with the last one - the Kingdom of God - >occurring after the 2nd coming. Personally, I have argued against >dispensationalism, on the grounds that its theology excludes the existence of >supernatural spiritual gifts today (they are assumed to belong to the >"establishment of the church" dispensation), that its placement of the Kingdom >of God in the future does not agree with Jesus' sayings, and that it lacks >Biblical justification - but this is supposed to be a brief summary. Your description of dispensationalism is good, but I must mention the following: 1.) There are "ultra-dispensationalists" who divide the early church age into small little dispensations and who have very strange, sometimes heretical views. These are not representative of normal Dispensational teaching. 2.) Rejection of the supernatural spiritual gifts is not a distinctive of dispensationalism. The bigger Pentecostal denominations such as the Assembly of God teach Dispensational theology. Hal Lindsey accepts the presence of supernatural gifts in the church today. God bless. John Baskette jfb@macsch.com From news@aiai.ed.ac.uk Mon Jan 11 04:24:19 1993 Received: from ben.uknet.ac.uk by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA08514; Mon, 11 Jan 93 04:24:19 EST Received: from eros.uknet.ac.uk by ben.uknet.ac.uk via UKIP with SMTP (PP) id ; Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:24:00 +0000 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk by eros.uknet.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP (PP) id <28100-0@eros.uknet.ac.uk>; Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:24:15 +0000 To: soc-religion-christian@uknet.ac.uk Path: aiai!jkk From: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Post-millenialism - Correction (was Re: Hal Lindsay) Message-Id: <8136@skye.ed.ac.uk> Date: 11 Jan 93 09:25:03 GMT References: Sender: news@aiai.ed.ac.uk Reply-To: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston) Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland Lines: 46 In article I wrote: > >There are generally four viewpoints held by Christians about what will happen >at the 2nd coming: > >1) Pre-millenialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven before the >"thousand years of tribulation" predicted in the book of Revelation. Lindsey's >books take this viewpoint, and proceed to instantiate other prophecies in >Revelation and elsewhere with current world events, to suggest that the 2nd >coming is very close. As far as I understand, pre-millenialism is less widely >believed now than it used to be, and Lindsey's writings are not considered >valid by anyone who has seriously studied the subject. > >2) Post-millenialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven after >enduring the 1000 years of tribulation > >3) Amillenialism - there won't be a literal "thousand years of tribulation" > When I posted my summary of different views on the end times, I received criticism of my (short) summary of postmillenialism. OK, I was wrong, and this posting attempts to clear up some of the confusion. Firstly, the book of Revelation(s) doesn't actually talk about a thousand years of tribulation (thank goodness :-)). Instead, it appears to predict 3.5 years of tribulation followed by 1000 years of God ruling on earth (see Revelation 12, 20, and a commentary for more details). Secondly, (most) postmillenialists believe that the years of tribulation *have already happened*, and the 1000 years of God's rule are either happening now or are about to happen. This is a fundamental belief in Christian Reconstructionism, as pointed out in a separate thread. This invalidates my statement about postmillenialists' defensive view of the world. Mea culpa JK John Kingston, | Knowledge Engineering Methods Group, | The heart of the problem AIAI, University of Edinburgh | is the problem of the heart E-mail jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk, phone 031-650 2736 | From usenet@samba.oit.unc.edu Mon Jan 11 22:15:42 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA07887; Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:15:42 EST Received: from relay1.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA16631; Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:15:40 -0500 Received: from reggae.concert.net by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA19555; Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:15:34 -0500 Received: from mcnc.UUCP by reggae.concert.net (5.59/tas-reggae/8-15-92) id AA04651; Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:05:09 -0500 Received: from samba.oit.unc.edu by reggae.concert.net (5.59/tas-reggae/8-15-92) id AA03734; Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:33:55 -0500 Received: by samba.oit.unc.edu (5.57/TAS/11-16-88) id AA15004; Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:33:52 -0500 Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: usenet From: Gene.Gross@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Gene Gross) Subject: Re: Hal Lindsay's Writings on Prophesy Message-Id: <1993Jan12.023339.14953@samba.oit.unc.edu> Sender: usenet@samba.oit.unc.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: lambada.oit.unc.edu Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service References: Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:33:39 GMT Apparently-To: uunet!soc-religion-christian John, You need to make some further distinctions as regards the pre-mil view. The classical pre-mil view, which is not dispensational, follows the Olivet Discourse as the outline for eschatology. This view has been around a very long time. In fact, Justin is only one of many early fathers who shared this view. This view see the Church raptured at the appearing of Christ at His return, which some now call the post-trib rapture view. There are also pre-mils who believe that the rapture occurs in the middle of the 70th week. BTW, Walter Martin was a classical pre-mil. En Agape, Gene Gross Since I now work for me, I'm responsible for my own thoughts!! -- The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80