From news@hpbs2500.boi.hp.com Tue Oct 19 13:18:14 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA04961; Tue, 19 Oct 93 13:18:14 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA08018; Tue, 19 Oct 93 13:18:13 -0400 Received: from hp.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA27832; Tue, 19 Oct 93 13:17:39 -0400 Received: from hpbs2500.boi.hp.com by hp.com with SMTP (16.8/15.5+IOS 3.13) id AA27849; Tue, 19 Oct 93 10:17:29 -0700 Received: by hpbs2500.boi.hp.com (16.8/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA14119; Tue, 19 Oct 93 11:17:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 11:17:28 -0600 From: News Server Project Message-Id: <9310191717.AA14119@hpbs2500.boi.hp.com> To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Path: rdetweil >From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler) Subject: Re: Ever dealt with the Bahai? Sender: news@boi.hp.com (News Server Project) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 17:17:25 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: hpbs1024.boi.hp.com Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise Printer Division Hello Christian friends, I am a Baha'i and would like to clarify some points in the following posting if I may. I hope that this is appropriate for this newsgroup. My only intention is to provide a clearer understanding of Baha'i principles. As has been mentioned by the moderator in another post, there is a newsgroup soc.religion.bahai for those who would like to know the story "from the horse's mouth" as it were. Perhaps asking these questions in s.r.b. would be more appropriate. As someone once said about baseball - if you want to know about the Cubs, you don't go ask the White Sox. :-) In article you write: >jcho@nmsu.edu writes: >> I would be interested in knowing more about this Bahai faith movement >> from Christians and would like to know how one can successfully defend >> one's faith against those of the Bahai. >> > > ok, i recently went to a lecture by Dwight Allen, a UN >consultant and BAhai missionary, and this is what I heard about >the Bahai faith... > it was founded in 19th century Persia by a guy named >Bahaula, i think that is how it is spelled... he left the Islam >faith, and claimed that he was the ultimate prophet of God, and >that he has the answers to everything... Yes, Baha'u'llah ( it means "The Glory of God" in Arabic) founded the Baha'i Faith and died a prisoner of the Ottoman Empire in 1892. His claim was that He was the fulfillment of the prophecies of all religions but not the last Prophet by any means - the Baha'i position is that God reveals Himself through these Manifestations progressively in a never ending process - there have always been Manifestations and will always be. > basically, what he said is that that all religions lead to >God, and that all prophets, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, Buddha, >Mohammed, etc., were in fact manifestations of God too... > therefore, he said all religions give salvation to a man, >therefore it doesn't matter which one you follow... I would clarify this by saying that in the Baha'i view, these religions are all valid as they all come from God. But as humanity progresses socially, intellectually and spiritually, the requirements for a well ordered society change, hence the next Manifestation brings social and spiritual laws necessary for humanity at that stage of development. So, in fact, it does matter which one you follow in terms of humanity's progress. Manifestations come to humanity at times when societies are at their nadir. The longer the period that the Prophet is rejected, the longer the period of social and moral decline of that civilization. > i asked the lecturer about why Christ was the only one of >all these prophets who actually claimed to be God, and he >mumbled something to the effect that the other prophets just >weren't clear in what they were saying, and that Christ was >being metaphorical...that is their common defense against >Christianity, the metaphor... I would ask that you forgive his mumbling and allow me to clearly state the Baha'i position here for your consideration - which does differ from the mainstream Christian trinitarian view of God. Let me begin with something I think we can agree upon - God is completely beyond the understanding of mortal men. We are shut out from a complete comprehension of our Creator. But in His love for us, He has sent Prophets to guide us. The Baha'i Faith teaches that these Prophets are endowed by God with the capacity to perfectly manifest the attributes of God to mankind to the extent to which we are able to comprehend them. This is the reason for the term Manifestation of God used by Baha'is. The Baha'i view is that these Manifestations, as perfect reflections of the attributes and Will of God, speak only what God would have them speak. In this regard, they are as God Himself to humanity at the time of their ministry. If you want to know God's Will for humanity, you can know it only through these Manifestations. Hence it is that Jesus tells the Jews "I am the Way, the Truth... No one can come to the Father except through Me". Forgive me the paraphrase - I know that is not exact. > then i asked about how Christ claimed that he was the only >way to God, and the lecturer said that this was a relative >statement meant for the people of Christ's time, and that he >wasn't referring to all people... Yes, and hereis where I am sure we will differ in our understanding. The Baha'i view is that each Manifestation is the most perfect way to God for His time. Was not Moses the surest path to God for the Jews? Was not Abraham for His people? The same is true for Christ, and Baha'is believe, for Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. > > [Some deleted] > > well, to continue, the Bahais pride themselves on being the >only one of the major religions to have been founded in the Age >of Science... they see their religion as the best one because >it allows them to be so open-minded...in fact, though, the >theology of Bahaula was very similar to New Age, with several >levels of heaven, and God as an impersonal force, and no hell >other than what we make on this earth.... I would like to respectfully state that you are incorrect in your understanding of Baha'i belief in some of this paragraph. I must admit, I don't know in what way Baha'i theology is like "New Age" - perhaps if you are interested you could point these similarities out for me. I don't know what you mean by "several levels of heaven" but my understanding is that as spiritual beings, we will continue to progress after our physical deaths and draw closer to God. God is a very personal force in my life - Baha'is must pray at least once a day, and Baha'u'llah councelled humanity to read the Word of God in the morning and in the evening to keep that connection with God open and intimate. If you mean that we do not believe in Hell as a physical reality, you are correct. The Baha'i view is that Hell is a spiritual station one puts oneself in if you remain remote from God and concentrate on the wordly things of this life. > > [ Advice in dealing with your friend deleted ] > My advice to jcho would be to Pray to God and speak sincerely from your heart. That is the best any one of us can do. Please excuse the length of this reply but I hope it has been of use to some of you. >In Christ, > >Vitaly, vv3u@viriginia.edu Warm regards, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com From news@vela.acs.oakland.edu Wed Oct 20 23:19:46 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA17753; Wed, 20 Oct 93 23:19:46 EDT Received: from relay2.UU.NET by rodan.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA06427; Wed, 20 Oct 93 23:19:45 -0400 Received: from vela.acs.oakland.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA14200; Wed, 20 Oct 93 23:19:43 -0400 Received: by vela.acs.oakland.edu id AA20609 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 20 Oct 1993 23:19:39 -0400 To: soc-religion-christian@uunet.uu.net Path: vela.acs.oakland.edu!atterlep From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Ever dealt with the Bahai? Date: 21 Oct 93 03:11:35 GMT Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 28 Message-Id: References: Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.oakland.edu As a Catholic who was, for a short time, a member of the Bahai faith (I can't get the right marks anyway), I wanted to offer an opinion on them. The Bahai's are not a cult--although the Bahais I met were willing to accept a lot on blind faith, they didn't seem any more cultish than, say, the Assembly of God. They do not claim that all religions have equal validity, but rather that every religion has SOME validity, and that God is revealing his word through gradual lessons, not all at once. I have been told by Bahais that Bahuallah was the last prophet, although postings here have contradicted this. Bahais are not permissive, as some people have stated. In fact, the Bahais I knew lived more in tune with the secular parts of the Christian moral code (don't fornicate, don't lie, don't steal, etc...) more than the average Christian. I think this is because most Bahais in the US are converted to their faith, and so are more committed to their ideals. The poster who said that Bahais were coming up with another way to rationalize sin are, in my opinion, wrong. Bahais have a strong belief in unity. Their practices are a mixture of Middle Eastern and European traditions. They are working for a world government and believe very strongly in what we would call "multiculturalism," which makes them very attractive to people brought up in liberal environments. Alan Terlep "Just because it's fair, doesn't mean Oakland University, Rochester, MI you have to like it." atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu Rushing in where angels fear to tread. --Me